Prolazimo kroz drugu tranziciju
intervju s Gonzalom Gárateom
We have a second transition
interview with Gonzalo Gárate
20.03.2013.
Španjolska već gotovo dvije godine prolazi kroz intenzivno razdoblje mobilizacije građana protiv vlastite političke klase i mjera štednje koju nameće Europska Unija. Sve veći broj ljudi na ulicama zahtijeva direktnu demokraciju, pravedni socijalni sustav i drugačiju ekonomiju. Igor Bezinović, Vjekoslav Gašparović i Emil Jurcan razgovarali su 26.veljače o tim temama s Gonzalom Gárateom - urednikom madridskog dvotjednika Diagonal.
Photo by Igor Bezinović
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- Sloboda medija je trenutno u Hrvatskoj, kao i u većini europskih zemalja, na najnižem stupnju do sada, većina medija radikalno podržava vlast pa se i mi, kao članovi različitih inicijativa, konstantno susrećemo s problemom kako probiti vladajuću hegemoniju koja se nameće upravo pomoću kontrole nad medijima. Kakvo je tvoje iskustvo u suočavanju s tim problemima, radeći u novinama Diagonal u ovim burnim vremenima u Španjolskoj?
- Moje iskustvo u novinama Diagonal datira još prije trenutne mobilizacije u Španjolskoj. Započeli smo s njima prije osam godina kao nastavak prethodnog projekta zvanog Molotov, fanzina koji je nastao još krajem osamdesetih. Došli smo do faze u kojoj je dio ljudi iz Molotova započeo raspravu sa osobama iz novinarskog fakulteta u Madridu oko toga što bi se moglo promjeniti u novinama. Glavni zaključak je bio da su Molotov novine koju rade i prate sudionici društvenog pokreta, a to znači da ih je čitao uski krug ljudi. Tada smo shvatili da bi trebalo pokrenuti novine koje bi također progovarale iz pozicije društvenog pokreta, to je nešto što nazivamo poziciono novinarstvo, ali s kojima bi pokušali doprijeti do ljudi izvan samog pokreta. Nešto što volimo naglasiti kada pričamo o Diagonalu je da nikada nismo željeli progovarati u nečije ime, ne mislimo da smo mi oni koji daju glas ljudima bez glasa, to bi bilo dosta paternalistički. Smatramo da svatko ima svoj glas i da bi mediji trebali raditi na tome da se ti glasovi čuju. S tim željama smo počeli izdavati Diagonal. Bilo je to doba velike mobilizacije protiv rata u Iraku pa je tlo bilo plodno za razvoj novina, kao što je i danas.
- Kako trenutni događaji u Španjolskoj utječu na Diagonal?
- Nešto što doživljavamo u posljednjih godinu i pol, od kada je 15M pokret izbio na trgu Puerta del Sol 15.svibnja 2011. godine, erupcija je autonomnih medija: novina, televizija, radija, različitih samoorganiziranih projekata kojih je svakim danom sve više. S jedne strane su u ovim trenutcima krize projekti poput Diagonala dobivaju na važnosti, pa sve više ljudi čuje za nas. Ali očito, s druge strane, upravo zbog krize ljudi imaju sve manje para za kupovinu novina. Diagonal prikupi najviše novca preko pretplata koje su 50 eura godišnje i koje ljudi plaćaju unaprijed. Istovremeno imate sve više novih projekata unutar pokreta pa se počinje stvarati neka vrsta konkurencije između autonomnih medija. Na primjer, pokret kvartovskih plenuma u Madridu je pokrenuo svoje novine Madrid15M koje su jako zanimljive, pišu o raspravama sa kvartovskih plenuma, o akcijama u kvartovima poput sprječavanja deložacije ljudi iz stanova ili skvotiranja socijalnih centara. To su neke vrste informacija koje su drugačije i komplementarne sa novinama Diagonal pa bismo mogli reći da nema potrebe za ikakvom konkurencijom, ali ako neko potroši pare na novine Diagonal nema za Madrid15M, i obratno. Tako da prolazimo kroz proljeće razvoja autonomnih medija, ali čini mi se da ćemo doći do određene granice unutar svakog projekta i tada ćemo morati vidjeti zajedno kako dalje.
- Kako je Diagonal organiziran? U kojoj nakladi izlazite?
- Tiraža nam je 15.000 kopija koje distribuiramo po Španjolskoj svaka dva tjedna. Imamo 5.300 pretplatnika, ostalo se distribuira po kioscima i po mrežama alternativnih mjesta, poput socijalnih centra, knjižara, trgovina,... U Madridu imamo između 150 i 200 takvih mjesta. Same novine imaju administraciju, u kojoj je jedna osoba zadužena za distribuciju, jedna za pretplatu. Imamo osobu zaduženu za uređivanje web stranice na kojoj dnevno objavljujemo vijesti. Zaposlena je još jedna osoba koja je zadužena za društvene mreže i jedna koja se bavi reklamama. U redakciji su dva fotografa, jedan dizajner i tri osobe koje pretežno rade novinarski posao. Očito da tri novinara ne mogu napisati cijele novine, tako da se mi koji radimo tu zapravo više bavimo koordinacijom ljudi koji podržavaju projekt i surađuju s novinama. Veći dio novina, možda 70%, razvijen je i napisan pomoću suradnika za koje nažalost nemamo dovoljno financijskih sredstva.
- In Croatia, as in many countries, the current situation of media is on its lowest level, most of them radically supporting the authority and the government. As members of different initiatives, we constantly deal with the problem how to break with the hegemony that is imposed with the help of press. How is your experience, working in the newspaper like Diagonal in a turbulent times in Spanish society?
- The newspaper Diagonal is a bit older than the current movement in Spain, it started 8 years ago as a continuation of a project called Molotov, which was a fanzine and newspaper dating back in late 80`s. At one moment some persons involved in Molotov started a discussion with other people from journalist faculty in Madrid on what could be changed. The main conclusion was that the Molotov newspaper was created from the social movement and for the social movement, so it was being read only by limited number of readers. Since that moment, the idea came to produce another newspaper, also from the social movement, what we call situated journalism, but try to spread it outside the social movement. Something we like to point out since beginning of Diagonal paper is that we don't want to talk in somebody's name, we don't like to describe ourselves as someone that is giving voice to the voiceless, that would be quite paternalistic. We think that everyone has its own voice and the media is here to manage that your voice is being listened. Diagonal project started in time of big anti-war demonstration in Spain, as in the rest of the world, so it was a moment of big mobilization and the soil was quite fertile for us to grow, as it is also happening now again.
- How do the current events in Spain affect Diagonal?
What we have seen in the last year in the half, from the break out of the 15M movement is the spring of grass-roots media: newspapers, TV, radio, different self-managed projects that are starting to take place. At one side the project like Diagonal is more important in this moments of crisis and more people are starting to know us. But obviously, due to the crisis the people don't have money to invest in the papers. We take most of the money from the subscription system that costs 50 Euros a year, so we are asking the people to pay us in advance. At the same time, there are lots of new projects from the movement and there is a kind of competition between grass-roots media projects, because the amount of people who is interested in these kind of things is limited. It is a lot but still limited. For instance the neighbourhood assemblies movement here in Madrid started their own paper, which is quite interesting, they talk about what is happening in the neighbourhoods and what the assemblies are doing, like stopping evictions from homes, squatting social centres ... So you could say it's different kind of information's from Diagonal so there's no need for competition, but if somebody is spending money for Diagonal he or she has no money for the 15M assemblies newspaper, and other way around. So we have a spring of grass-roots media but I think we will reach a limit of each project and we will have to see together what to do.
- How are the Diagonal newspapers organized? How many copies do you produce?
- We are running 15.000 copies every two weeks and we distribute it all over Spain. We have 5.300 subscribers, the rest is distributed in kiosk but only in Madrid because we cannot afford in all country, and we have network of alternative points where we sell paper - libraries, social centers, shops,... in Madrid there are around 150-200 of these places. The newspaper has an administration area, one person in charge with distribution, another with subscriptions. Then we have someone taking care of the web site, which is managed daily with new posts. We have also person taking care about social networks and another person in charge of publicity and advertizing. There are 2 photographers involved, 1 designer and 3 persons doing more journalistic work. It is obvious that only 3 persons cannot write the whole paper so we are basically coordinating people who are supporting the project and collaborating with the paper. The main part of the paper, maybe 70%, is developed and written by the people who collaborate, but sadly we cannot afford to pay all those articles.
They don`t represent us - slogan of the Diagonal newspaper
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- Imate lijepi logo.
- Mislimo ga promijeniti jer dosta asocira na anarhističku zastavu, što nije ništa loše, ali neki ljudi koji ne znaju za novine dobiju prvi dojam preko logoa pa si misle "a to je neka anarhistička stvar, ne zanima nas". Mislim, čitatelji koji su zainteresirani za te teme će pročitati članke i imati svoje mišljenje o njima neovisno o logou, ali neki ljudi padaju na prvi dojam.
- U subotu (23.veljače 2013.) smo bili na protestu i jedna od stvari koje smo opazili je da zapravo i nema puno zastava s klasičnom ikonografijom, poput anarhističke ili komunističke.
- Mislite? Ali vidjeli ste zastave republike. Bilo ih je nevjerojatno puno, nikad do sad ih nisam vidio toliko. Na neki način ta zastava predstavlja poprilično staru ikonografiju, a s druge strane broj ljudi koji zahtijeva republiku u Španjolskoj ubrzano raste. Inače je, u posljednjih petnaestak godina, republikanstvo bilo nešto što se povezivalo sa starijim ljudima, ali u zadnje dvije godine tu ideju prihvaćaju mlađe generacije. To je velika promjena.
- Da li je to isto povezano s erupcijom pokreta 15M?
- Da, povezano je, ali glavna veza je zapravo revolt protiv kraljevske obitelji zbog korupcijskih afera koje je okružuju. Naravno, kada pričamo o španjolskoj monarhiji ne možemo ne istaknuti da je kralj postavljen direktno od strane Franca. Mnogi ljudi u Španjolskoj ni danas ne razumiju kako se to zapravo dogodilo. Moja generacija je rođena nakon tog perioda, kojeg nazivamo tranzicijom između diktature i demokracije, ali naši roditelji su bili politički aktivni u to doba i govore nam da se tada jednostavno nije moglo zahtijevati više jer je pritisak bio nevjerojatan - fašističke grupe su bile na ulicama, velike tenzije oko štrajkova po zemlji, polemike oko legalizacije komunističke stranke i sindikata... Zbog tog razloga neki ljudi tvrde da od početka 15M-a prolazimo kroz drugu tranziciju, da sada zahtijevamo promjene koje nismo uspjeli zahtijevati u prvoj tranziciji prije trideset godina. Jedan od tih zahtjeva je definitivno republika.
- Koja je još bitna razlika između prve i druge tranzicjie osim pitanja republike?
- Još jedna velika tema u Španjolskoj je izborni sustav koji je osmišljen u prvoj tranziciji na način da snažno podupire dvostranaštvo. Do nedavno su gotovo sve glasove dobivale dvije najveće stranke - PP (Narodna stranka) i PSOE (socijalistička stranka). To je nešto što se počelo ozbiljno urušavati, postotak glasova ovih dviju stranaka je pao sa 70% na 40% i izgleda da će nastaviti padati. Međutim, takva politička situacija zahtijeva promjenu ustava kako bi se omogućio drugačiji sustav koji ne bi bio dvostranački, a te promjene definitivno ne odgovaraju ovim strankama. Dakle dvostranačje i monarhija, dva temelja prve tranzicije, danas potpuno gube svoju legitimnost i zbog toga se stvari radikalno mijenjaju.
- You have a nice logo.
- Were about to change it, because it has a lot of references to anarchist flag, which is nothing to complain about, but sometimes the people when they start to know the paper the first image they get is the logo and they say "oh, is this the anarchist thing, so we're not interested in it". I mean, readers who are interested in the issues will just go to the articles and read them and have a proper idea out of that, but some people let themselves go by the first impression.
- In Saturday (23.2.2013.) we were on protest and one of our first impression was that there is not so much classical iconography on the street, like anarchist or communist one...
- You think so? But you saw the republicans flags. There were lots and lots of them, I never seen so much. Somehow that flag represents quite an old iconography, but at the same time the amount of people demanding republic is growing rapidly. Usually, I would say, for the last 10-15 years republicanism was something associated with old people, but for the last few years it is something that is getting into relation with young people. So that is changing.
- Is this growing republicanism also related to the 15M?
- Yes, it is definitely related, but the main issue here is the corruption cases that are going on right now in the royal family. Of course, we have to point out that the monarchy was imposed by the Franco directly. So, obviously there is a huge lack of sources of democracy in the modern Spanish history. Many people don't understand how the Spanish society went through that. I mean, we were born after that moment, that we call the transition between dictatorship and democracy. Our parents were politically active in that time and they just say there wasn't another option, they couldn't go any further with demands, because the pressure was very high - there were fascist groups on the street, big tension with the strikes, legalization of the communist party, trade unions, etc. Ant that's why some people are pointing out that since 15M broke out we have the second transition. So, the things that couldn't be addressed and solved in the first transition 30 years ago, are going to be taken now. For instance, the idea of the republic.
- What else is the difference between the first and the second transition?
Another big issue is the Spanish electoral system that was managed in the first transition in a bipartisan way, giving lot of strength to two major parties (PP and PSOE). This is something that is starting g to collapse completely now. These two parties that usually took around 70% of all votes are now going down to 40% and it seems they will get even less on the next elections. But that is the political situation that will demand constitutional changes, and that is something that the two major parties are not willing to do. So, bipartisanism and monarchy, two fundamental moments of the first transition are losing its legitimacy now, so things are starting to change.
Citizen`s Tide (Marea Ciudadana) protest in Madrid 23. February 2013. Photo by: Demotix
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- Da li je promjena ustava jedan od zahtijeva u Španjolskoj trenutno?
- Ne zahtijeva se toliko promjena ustava koliko pokretanje konstitutivnog procesa. Istovremeno se taj proces doživljava kao nešto što se ne odvija samo u parlamentu nego je to pretežno kulturna promjena, što znači da se način gledanja na politiku u potpunosti mijenja.
- Koliko su te promjene uspijele utjecati na hegemoniju mainstream medija? Da li sada informacija prodire direktno do ljudi?
- Direktno informiranje je sigurno nešto što se ostvarilo korištenjem društvenih mreža. Moglo bi se reći da je hegemonija mainstream medija počela pucati. Ali tek je počela! Na primjer, imali smo demonstracije u subotu i četrdeset osoba je uhapšeno. Ljudi su se odmah informirali o tome jer imaju prijatelja ili pouzdan izvor koji je bio na licu mjesta i taj izvor im je javio da je policija bila potpuno luda i da nije bilo razloga za hapšenjem. Tako da im je odmah bilo jasno da je policija privodila ljude samo da bi sljedeći dan na vijestima mogli nastaviti s kriminalizacijom pokreta. Mediji nisu željeli pokazati tisuće i tisuće građana na ulicama. Zbog toga se sve više osoba oslanja na vlastite izvore, a ne na službene medije.
- Ali skoro svaku sedmicu na tisuće ljudi izlazi na ulice u Španjolskoj. To je realnost koja se ne može tek tako zanemariti.
- Naravno da ne mogu u potpunosti marginalizirati tu činjenicu. Ali, na primjer, kada je pokret počeo 2011. godine španjolski mediji nisu uopće obraćali pažnju na njega. Prva fotografija prepunog trga Puerta del Sol nije publicirana u Španjolskoj, izašla je na naslovnici jebenog Wall Street Journala! Mi smo u Diagonalu par dana prije 15.svibnja imali nekoliko članaka o različitim grupama koje su se bavile organiziranjem skupa - organizacije mladih, ljudi koji se bave internet pravima, ljudi koji su zahtijevali promjenu izbornog zakona... Pokušali smo opisati političke subjekte koji su započeli priču jer je očito da se 15M organizirao nekoliko mjeseci unaprijed, nije pao s neba. Bez obzira na to, ni jedan mainstream medij nije imao nikakav interes baviti se time.
Transkribirao i preveo s engleskog Emil Jurcan
Intervju izvorno objavljen u novinama Zarez, br.354, 14.03.2013.
- Is the change of constitution one of the demands right now in Spain?
The demand of the constituent process is one of the big ones today and at the same time understanding this process not only as something that is taking place within the parliament, but mainly as a cultural change which means that the way you are looking at the politics and how things have to be organized is completely different.
- Did the movement managed to affect the hegemony of mainstream media? Do information's avoid media and getting through more direct?
- That is something you get by using social networks. We could talk that the hegemony of the mainstream media is starting to break. But it is just a start! For example, we had demonstrations on Saturday and 40 persons were arrested. People were informed on that event through social networks because they have a friend or somebody they know on the demonstration and they rely on that source, and that source is telling them that the police was completely mad, that there were no reasons to arrest people. So the people understand that the police arrested them just to go in news next morning and criminalize the movement. They didn't want to show thousands and thousands people on the streets. So the point is that the people starts to rely on other closer sources, not on mainstream media.
- But there are almost every week thousands of people in the street in Spain. It is a reality you cannot easily avoid.
They cannot completely marginalized that fact, but for instance, when the movement started in 2011. the media in Spain didn't pay any attention to it. The first picture of crowded Puerta del Sol on the cover of the newspaper was not published in Spain, it was the fucking Wall Street Journal!
We had in Diagonal few days before May 15 several articles on different groups who were organizing demonstration - the youth organizations, then the people involved in internet rights, people who demand the change of electoral law,... We were trying to bring the analysis who are the political subjects who started the protest. Obviously, the demonstration was being constructed several months before, it didn't came out of nowhere, but still no mainstream media found it interesting to write about it.
Transcription and translation from english by Emil Jurcan
Originally published in Zarez newspaper, n.354, 14.03.2013.